The outgoing High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, has told UN News in an interview to mark the end of her term in office that she's always spoken out and felt free to act, while acknowledging that doing the job is "a constant and permanent struggle" to prevent governments from restricting essential freedoms. In an in-depth interview with UN News, ahead of officially leaving her post on Wednesday, the two-time former president of Chile and head of UN Women, looked back over her four years heading her office, OHCHR, and said while human rights had gone backward in some areas, there have been "important steps in others." "As always in life, you have good moments and difficult moments, and you have to work with both", she said, adding that she'd never been compelled to keep quiet in the top rights job. "I always felt free to say, or not to say, what I thought it was necessary to do." One the issue of the long-awaited report relating to her recent visit to China, which has yet to be published, Ms. Bachelet said that she had made her position clear to Chinese officials, and said all that she had come to say, on the first visit by a UN rights chief in 17 years. She describes running OHCHR as a "sometimes contradictory mandate" where you have to both be "the voice of the voiceless", and also engage with sometime unsympathetic Member States on the highest diplomatic level to provide guidance, expertise, and bolster monitoring and reporting. And she's got plenty of advice to pass on to her successor, once they are chosen, she tells us. UN News: Four years ago, when you began your mandate, you said in an interview for UN News that the defense of human rights is a task that never ends as you leave. What were the key things you did get done and what were you unable to resolve? Michelle Bachelet: Well, I will have to answer again what I told you four years ago. It's a task that never ends, so probably there's a lot of things we were not able to do or to achieve. With the civil society, with other agencies, we have had some important steps. Like, for example, the decision of the General Assembly, that there is a human right – a right to a healthy environment - and the fight against pollution, and so on. This was a long-time fight from civil society, but afterwards, a very strong partnership between us and WHO, pushing for that. And then there was the Human Rights Council resolution, that then went to the General Assembly and was also, I would say, approved by a big majority or a strong majority. So, I think that was really important. I believe that the worst threat for humanity is what we call the triple planetary crisis; climate change, pollution and biodiversity loss. So, if the Member States walk the talk, I think it will be a really important step. But we also got some other things. I would say we have seen certain trends towards abolition of the death penalty. Over 170 countries either have abolished already, or have established a moratorium on the death penalty and more countries have announced that they're going to go in the same direction. That I think is very good news as well. In some places we have been able to support people, so their voices are being heard, so laws have been changed - for the better, if I may say, in terms of protecting and promoting human rights, women's rights or children's rights. Also, I will say that we have been working towards the protection of human rights defenders. It's always a job that has to have big goals and medium ones and smaller ones, because you have to do so many different things. So, we'll need to continue working. If any High Commissioner said everything's done, I would say hello, no, that's not reality. UN News: In these four years, human rights principles have undergone hard tests, from an unprecedented pandemic to new, unexpected wars, and from attacks on women's rights, to military coups and new dictatorships. Do you think the evolution of universal human rights is in retreat? That is going into reverse? Michelle Bachelet: Well, you're right, the world has changed dramatically I would say over the four years. Of course, you mentioned already the pandemic, and increasingly strong impact of climate change. And now we're seeing the reverberating shocks of the food, fuel and finance crisis as a consequence of the war in Ukraine. We have seen also huge polarization on the international level, and also we have seen protest movements and coups d'états in Myanmar and Burkina Faso and Guinea and Mali, and also the takeover of the Taliban in Afghanistan. And so I would say this is not something that goes only in one direction, because on one side, yes, you can see a lot of things that are going in the wrong direction and they're not helping human rights. We cannot take it for granted because nobody thought a new war could come in Europe, and we have one, and we thought that human rights was a given, and it's not. And we saw that countries who always speak about human rights, (do) not necessarily always respect them. I would say it's a constant and permanent struggle to not only be aware, but to call on Member States to continue (with their) responsibility that is to protect and promote, and also to support civil society so they can do their part as well. (We) have seen so many important movements, young people demonstrating for the planet, women, the Me Too campaign...Or, Black Lives Matter and all the demonstrations in favor of stopping systemic racism, and so on. So, I would say there has been (a) reverse in some areas, but on the other hand, there have been important step in others. So as always in life, you have good moments and difficult moments, and you have to work with both. UN News: So, talking about difficult moments, what have been the hardest moments of for you personally in charge of the Human Rights Office? Michelle Bachelet: Well, I mean there are different kinds of things. Sometimes you have to deal with terrible individual cases that really touch you very much. But on the other hand, when you go into a place and you see the pain of the people - I just came back from Cox's Bazar talking to Rohingyas and seeing they're asking us, the UN, to ensure that they can go back to Myanmar. And we're not able right now to ensure, because the right conditions are not there so they can go in in a safe manner. But on the other hand, you see people there full of energy and enthusiastic, and willing to go back to their country. One of the issues that was very difficult, not only in the world but also in the office (OHCHR) was the COVID-19 pandemic because it meant that everything was changed. We had to learn to adapt to the new situation, to live in different circumstances. The shutdown, the quarantines, were really complicated for many people, for our colleagues as well, with little children and so on. And on the other hand, we had to deal with the lack of equalities in terms of access to vaccines, access to treatment. Looking again how COVID-19 laid bare all the inequalities in the world are, that made it for me so clear, that after we are able to recover from the pandemic, our goal was not to go back to normality, because that normality was very bad. That normality brought us to that (point), but also gave us the possibility of discussing, OK, what do we want for the future? So that's why we started talking about "build back better" but now we are changing that to "build forward better", if I may say. So, always something that is a problem, can bring opportunities. UN News: Your predecessor, Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein said at the end of his mandate, that it was better to have been wrong and spoken out, than to have stayed silent in the face of injustice. Have you had to remain silent sometimes or you have felt free to always speak your mind? What if any, compromises have you had to make? Michelle Bachelet: Well, first of all, I am a UN Under-Secretary-General, so every time I speak, I speak (as the) High Commission of Human Rights of the UN, so I'm always independent to say what I think I have to say. But I don't speak as a person, I speak as the UN. I've always felt free in terms of saying what I thought should be said, or what I thought that was important. I always try to identify what's the best in every single situation, because not every situation is the same. Sometimes you have no other choice than to speak, and very strongly. In some others you can feel that maybe you can use different strategies, and but I have never felt that somebody imposed (on) me to be silent. I always felt free to say, or not to say, what I thought it was necessary to do. UN News: One of your last trips was to China. What do you feel you accomplished? Michelle Bachelet: Well, I think first of all, I have to say, this was the first trip of a High Commissioner for Human Rights, in 17 years and I had the opportunity to meet with national authorities, regional authorities and local authorities — provincial authorities — and I was able to convey all the messages that I thought it was important for them to hear from a High Commissioner of Human Rights, and to make our observations on what things should change and how everything — I would say law and policy — should be in compliance with international human rights law, and I was able to freely say all that I thought needed to be discussed with them. It's important with everyone, that I need to have a dialogue and a relation and engage all Member States and all stakeholders, and I always think sometimes dialogue can produce good results, sometimes not. I don't change it if it's China or the UK or US, or a developing country, we have defined with them certain follow-ups; how (to) work in the future with OHCHR with them in terms of analyzing certain laws that we feel are not in compliance with human rights laws, but also in terms of discussing issues like minority and human rights; ethnic groups and human rights; freedom of religion and human rights; business and human rights. UN News: What would you like to do when you see human rights being violated in conflicts from the ones that are on our radar screen like Ukraine, but also on those that slip off it, like Yemen, or Tigray? Michelle Bachelet: We continue working on all of these issues, but I would like the international community not to forget about those situations, and sometimes because so many things are on the agenda and some things take more relevance in the media politically speaking, some of them particularly on the protracted conflict, I feel they're forgotten, and people are feeling abandoned by the international community. For example, we see in Yemen that despite the truce there are violations. And so we think that the ceasefire is a good thing, but we need now political dialogue, political process and ensure protection of civilians. So I think the reduction of hostility has improved the capacity of humanitarian actors to support there. On the Sahel, for example, during my visit to Burkina Faso, I saw in Burkina, Niger, Mali, there are so many intersecting crises over there. And I think it's important the international community step up its support for that. — UN News
