RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Secretary General, I know we want to focus on what's happening on the Palestinian-Israeli front but let me take a couple of issues out of the way before we get to speak about that. Let me start with Iraq, with the elections in Iraq. What is your view given the fact that there have been threats by the current minister Nouri Al-Maliki that violence could take place, if there is no recount of votes and there have been calls by Iyad Allawi's party (the Iraqiya Party) for UN intervention. How well or how badly these elections are going in terms of counting votes? BAN KI-MOON: Basically, this election was a testament of Iraqi people firm commitment to democratization. The election went well without much irregularities or any pattern of fraudulence. Now about the counting, this is a very important process of election that is something to be determined by Iraqi people. United Nations in fact has not been directly involved in this process; however, it would be desirable to see all the transparency and objective way of handling this counting and respecting the result of election. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Has the UN observed any bad practice, in terms of the counting, in terms of the result of the elections? BAN KI-MOON: Our understanding and assessment is that there has not been such a pattern or irregularity or fraudulence. That is a very positive thing. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: On Sudan, President Bashir has been threatening to use his word “cut noses and necks” of those who would try to postpone the elections in Sudan. He is saying that this is interference in internal affairs of Sudan. How do you look at these threats? What are your reactions, whether the elections should be postponed or not? BAN KI-MOON: First of all, these elections scheduled for April 11th that is going to be a crucially important milestone in dealing with the Sudanese dossier. Now, the United Nations has taken this political situation in Sudan this year and next year as a highest priority. We are doing our best effort to have a smooth, first of all elections in April and very successful referendums. Now, the elections monitors, they should be given full access and full support so that this election will be transparent. At the same time, I appreciate this huge logistical challenge there. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Even calling for the postponement, if they see that fit? BAN KI-MOON: That is basically what the Sudanese government and National Electoral Commission have to decide. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: But the president is saying that any call for postponement is an intervention. And he is saying, “we will cut the nose and the necks of those who even go in that direction” these are his words not mine. BAN KI-MOON: I don't want to comment on this kind of rhetoric, which is not desirable at this time. Whether these elections should be carried out as scheduled or postponed, first of all that should be the decision of the Sudanese government. At the same time, there are huge logistical challenges. I can understand if there is going to be some delays or postponement for short period of time, but postponing far into November or so? I don't know whether there is any guarantee that there will be such a perfect preparation at this time. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Will you be meeting President Bashir while in Sirte. BAN KI-MOON: I don't have any plan at this time. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Will you be willing to meet him or do you still have the legal restrictions? Because according to ICC, he is not supposed to travel? BAN KI-MOON: I am just telling that I don't have any plan of meeting him at this time. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: But do you have the legal authority? Do you have the clearance from the legal department? Can you, could you meet him although he would have traveled? BAN KI-MOON: It is not such a kind of strict, legal restriction. You know that he was indicted by the ICC… RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Yes, and this is why I am asking BAN KI-MOON: … for these crimes against humanity. Therefore, I need to respect this decision of ICC. That's my role, to keep justice. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: So that's mean that you will not meet him, even if asked. BAN KI-MOON: Advice of my legal council is that, when there are critically important cases, then in such case, I will have to again discuss with my legal council. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: On Lebanon, I just came back from Beirut and there has been a movement on Tribunal in Lebanon. This movement that has led some to believe that indictments are coming in terms of the Tribunal for the assassination of the Prime Minister Hariri and others. While in another point of view, there is a loss of confidence in the Tribunal. Those people say that either the politics or the incompetence of Daniel Bellemare will surely keep it ineffective and useless. What do you say? BAN KI-MOON: I am not in a position to say anything about indictment. This is completely under the mandate of Mr Bellemare and his capacity as a prosecutor of this Tribunal. And I have a full confidence and trust in Mr. Bellemare's work. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: And do you feel that it's been so long that something needs to happen soon? Is there any time limit on when the Tribunal should be functional beyond being set up? BAN KI-MOON: We hope that there will be some progress, in this legal process, since it has been some time already that this Tribunal has been constituted. Therefore, we naturally expect that there will be progress as soon as possible but there is no such time limit or deadline. At the same time, I know that Mr. Bellemare and his team have been working tirelessly to make progress in this investigation process. So we have to wait what kind of result he is going to bring. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: In light of what he and his team have asked to do in Lebanon, in the last couple of weeks interviewing members associated with Hezbollah, one view has come up to say, “never mind justice, it will lead the country into a civil war if you pursue it”. They are afraid of questions; they call it the “Der Spigel scenario”. They are afraid, they say ‘forget it, forget the issue of impunity and justice if it means that the country will be unstable”. They are calling to sort of turn a blind eye on what is going on. Never mind impunity. BAN KI-MOON: It is always very challenging, very difficult, and even dangerous to bring justice, to keep justice RAGHIDA DERGHAM: To do what? BAN KI-MOON: To keep justice and to bring an end to impunity. This is a very noble principle, which we must uphold. But sometime, we may find it very difficult RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Even if it leads to a civil war? BAN KI-MOON: No, I even don't want to think about that kind of scenario. That is very very undesirable scenario. This is some kind of distractions; this is just a judicial process that should never be disrupted. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: In 1701 (report) you have recently said that the Lebanese President, who is holding that dialogue, you called him to be effective with the implementation of 1701 with all its aspects including the arms of Hezbollah. Recently, Syria's men have been launching an attack on President Suleiman. Do you feel that there is a message here? That the international community should be aware of and do something about? BAN KI-MOON: First of all, the SC resolution 1701 is a very important legal and political guideline, which all the parties concerned should keep. We have seen, some progress in the implementation of 1701 but still there are several important elements to be implemented fully. First of all, I am deeply concerned about Hezbollah's possessing arms. I hope this will be resolved. I highly commend President Suleiman's leadership and initiative to have national dialogue. I am afraid that the last time, this national dialogue has not been able to deal with this Hezbollah's armament and there is also illegal transfer of armaments into Lebanon's territory, which must be stopped through border management. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: The Syrian-Lebanese border? BAN KI-MOON: Yes, the Syrian-Lebanese border. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Are they cooperative enough with the resolution. We don't hear you doing anything about these resolutions, whether on this issue or the issue of drawing the borders between Syria and Lebanon. Is it a dead issue? BAN KI-MOON: I have been urging both the Syrian and Lebanese leadership to resolve this issue through border management committee. I know that the border is still in a sense porous, we need to strengthen this border management. And there is also another (issue), the continuing over flight of Israeli airplanes over Lebanon, which undermines the integrity of the UNIFIL and Lebanese armed forces. Let alone the sovereignty of Lebanon and there should be an immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces from Ghajar and Shebaa Farms. All those issues I have discussed while visiting Israel. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: And what did they say? What did the Israeli say? BAN KI-MOON: The Defense Minister Barak would very seriously look into these issues. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: And are you considering burying resolution 1559? There is a lot of drive from certain quarters to say “stop'. You know they want the withdrawal; they want all kind of things. They sort of wanted you to give up your Envoy for the implementation of the 1559, are you going to be doing that? BAN KI-MOON: No, I don't have any such a plan. Mr. Terje is still my special envoy and any decision on the implementation or the future of SC resolution or mandate is the one which needs to be determined by the SC, not me. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Many in Lebanon are expecting war in the region. Everybody talks about war. Do you feel that there is going to be war? BAN KI-MOON: The situation is not favorable and there are still many elements of instability in the region. There are many regional dynamics, which have been walking adversarially to the Middle East peace process. This is why I have been working tirelessly with the leaders in the region, President Assad and leadership in Lebanon and Israel and Palestine and all this other leaders in the region. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Do you smell war? Do you feel war is coming? BAN KI-MOON: I am working for peace. I am working for peace. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: About Iran, this is another problem. People feel that pressuring Iran will lead Iran to become angry and explode its anger in different areas, such as in Lebanon or for the Israelis to become annoyed with all the pressure on them and change the subject if you will by launching an attack on Iran and again therefore Iraq and Lebanon would be the arena for such fights. Are you worried about such scenarios? BAN KI-MOON: I am deeply concerned about this Iranian nuclear development program. This is not only me, but it has been international community's consensus view that this must be addressed as soon as possible. For that, Iranians first of all must fully comply with all relevant Security Council resolutions. For any further course of measures, that should be taken by the Security Council. I understand that the members of the SC are actively engaging in consultations of what kind of measures should be taken before it is too late. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Before end of March? BAN KI-MOON: I don't have any clear idea, this question should be asked to the Security Council. They are actively engaging. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Do you understand why Iranians are rejecting these offers? Do you know what they want? Do you know, what Iranians want? BAN KI-MOON: I do not know. I cannot speak for the Iranians. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: But you, as the Secretary General, when you look at their position do you understand why they are not accepting the offers by E3 and the IAEA? BAN KI-MOON: I have my own observations but it is not for public domain. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Let me now go to the core issue that you wanted to talk us, which is the Palestinian Israeli situation. Your main message to the Arab Summit in Sirte as you already said is that to say to them, stay on the course in supporting the proximity talks no matter what Israel does on the ground. Do you feel that you need to do more than that in order to persuade them to stay on the course while the Israelis are going on defying the international community and changing the situation on the ground? BAN KI-MOON: At this time, there was strong statement by the quartet members, unity of purpose by the quartet members and international community and it has received the support from the League of Arab States; therefore, we need to monitor how the parties, particularly the Israeli government is doing. Now, the quartet has made it quite clear that while we monitor this situation we will also try to consider any additional steps, if necessary. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Let's talk about this for a moment because this is very important what you have just said. What is the mechanism for monitoring and what are the potential steps and when it is necessary? Let's go through that. BAN KI-MOON: Envoys of the Quartet have been tasked to regularly meet and monitor the situation and will report to the Quartet principles. Whenever it is necessary and whenever we are advised, then we meet and discuss all these matters. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: What about the additional steps, did you discuss that? What is meant by “additional steps”? BAN KI-MOON: I am not, at this time, it is too early to tell you before even monitoring this entire situation. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Well let me ask you as the Secretary General, in view of the erosion of the situation on the ground, is it the time that you the Secretary General of the United Nations Ban Ki-moon call on the Security Council to take up the matter. After all, Israel is defying the international law and it is violating UN resolutions. Since you personally have said that these are illegal settlements, isn't it time you do so? BAN KI-MOON: I have made it already clear that it is illegal to have these settlements. For any additional measure I will have to see and be advised by my special envoy, who will very carefully watch and monitor the situation. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Yes, but you already know that they are going on by their own declaration, with illegal settlements. You already know, you don't need your envoy to tell you that. BAN KI-MOON: I have reported to the Security Council already. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Is it time for the Security Council from your point of view to take action and show how serious the international community is? That it will not allow a defiance of its resolution and international law with acts of illegality so there will be no longer this accusation of double standards by the United Nations? BAN KI-MOON: I think that the SC has taken in the past so many times this Middle East peace process. Now what is important is that parties concerned have to clearly demonstrate their political will, to engage in a dialogue. Now, for Israelis there are many areas that they have to do: first freeze settlement and ease all crossings and closures. And for Palestinians they should choose the path of non-violence and they should also unify themselves. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Secretary General, you were obviously emotionally and morally shaken when Prime Minister Salam Fayyad took you and showed you… BAN KI-MOON: Yes Maysoun (Hill) overlooking … RAGHIDA DERGHAM: …Yes, things that the Security Council members haven't had the opportunity to do. Would you urge them to make a similar trip to yours? You know Security Council members go on trips to assess the situation on the ground. Would you advice the SC to do so? BAN KI-MOON: I have reported in public debate to the Security Council and again I participated in this informal consultation with the members of the Security Council and I again reported and briefed about my own assessment and now it is up to the members of the Security Council, what kind of action they will take. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: What is wrong with urging them to go on a mission to see on their own eyes like you did? Why do you feel so hesitant? BAN KI-MOON: They make their own decisions. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: But you could also give their own advice. BAN KI-MOON: I am sure they will make a decision on that RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Before you went there with Salam Fayyad, you really didn't know the situation as you yourself explained. You were shocked; do you blame yourself for not learning enough or your team who puts facts in front of you? And is it not helpful for the Security Council members to go on such a mission? BAN KI-MOON: Security Council members take their own missions. This year, I understand they are going to some of the African countries. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Is it a good idea that they go on a similar mission to the trip you have made? Is it a good idea? BAN KI-MOON: Why don't you ask the Security Council? They will make a decision. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: I am asking your opinion, sir. BAN KI-MOON: I have already done what I should do. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Are you afraid of an Israeli campaign against you? They have already insulted you, and insulted the Europeans. Gordon Brown was saying (about) an insult; that they went through extra juridical killings of Hamas leader in Dubai. BAN KI-MOON: Why should I be worried about that? RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Because you are hesitant on something so simple. BAN KI-MOON: No, please don't make any misunderstanding that I am hesitant or reluctant. You have seen, my record clearly tells how I have been speaking out loud and clear. This issue has been there longer than 60 years, unfortunately. And I have been doing my best as the Secretary General. When it is up to the member states. When member states do not move, this is a problem. That is why I am urging for a political will. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Member states, such as the United Kingdom condemned Israel and said it is an insult, and France as well, to have faked passports for extra juridical killing of the Hamas leader in Dubai. Do you share the view? BAN KI-MOON: This is a totally different case. That was sort of a criminal case investigation. This is a long-standing, very complicated and complex political issue so the nature is quite different. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Let me conclude with something that I would like you to tell me. My last question. The Quartet produced a very important statement that is detailed and people should read it, in its details. Do you feel that this statement by the Quartet is now equivalent to the de facto terms of reference for the proximity talks that are being run by the United States? Do you feel that the Quartet position in its statement have become the de facto terms of reference for the proximity talks that you are so eager to support and persuade the Arab leaders to make sure that they will continue supporting it? BAN KI-MOON: I think that the recent Quartet statement issued in Moscow was the most comprehensive and the strongest one. And it really reflected the consensus views of all the Quartet principles. Then I was very much encouraged by such unity of purpose among the Quartet principles. I am sure that this will be used as good guidelines and framework. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: And terms of reference? BAN KI-MOON: When you say such a legal term like “the term of reference”; the term of reference should be dealt by the parties concerned (in negotiations) facilitated by the United States. But the Quartet has given our position, so it is very clear and consensus views based on facts. Therefore, the parties concerned, the Israelis and Palestinians, in their negotiations should fully reflect what the Quartet has fully expressed. That is the best way and final way towards final resolution of all core issues. RAGHIDA DERGHAM: Thank you. BAN KI-MOON: Thank you very much.
